Discussion:
Will the fans stand up and make their voice heard?
(too old to reply)
Dr. Evil
2004-11-18 06:46:45 UTC
Permalink
When the game finally get back I truly hope that the fans will send a
message to the owners and players by EVERYONE in EVERY city Boycotting the
first game. I for one will never go to another NHL game (unless its free)
but the people who are fixed on actually going should show some balls and
skip at least the first game.

Empty fucking rinks across the league on opening night, what a site that
would be.
Ragnarok73
2004-11-18 19:18:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Evil
When the game finally get back I truly hope that the fans will send a
message to the owners and players by EVERYONE in EVERY city Boycotting the
first game. I for one will never go to another NHL game (unless its free)
but the people who are fixed on actually going should show some balls and
skip at least the first game.
What makes you think that rinks in the U.S. will be packed if the lockout
ends before this season goes completely down the tubes?
Post by Dr. Evil
Empty fucking rinks across the league on opening night, what a site that
would be.
That's what it'll probably look like in most U.S. cities, anyway- the NBA
and NFL are still going right now, so American fans have something to watch.

Ragnarok73
--
"Life is warfare and the sojourn of a stranger in a strange land." - Marcus
Aurelius
Dr. Evil
2004-11-19 05:35:25 UTC
Permalink
I don't mean half full, I mean completely empty. EVERYONE should boycott the
first game at least.
Post by Ragnarok73
Post by Dr. Evil
When the game finally get back I truly hope that the fans will send a
message to the owners and players by EVERYONE in EVERY city Boycotting
the first game. I for one will never go to another NHL game (unless its
free) but the people who are fixed on actually going should show some
balls and skip at least the first game.
What makes you think that rinks in the U.S. will be packed if the lockout
ends before this season goes completely down the tubes?
Post by Dr. Evil
Empty fucking rinks across the league on opening night, what a site that
would be.
That's what it'll probably look like in most U.S. cities, anyway- the NBA
and NFL are still going right now, so American fans have something to watch.
Ragnarok73
--
"Life is warfare and the sojourn of a stranger in a strange land." -
Marcus Aurelius
Ragnarok73
2004-11-23 04:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Evil
I don't mean half full, I mean completely empty. EVERYONE should boycott
the > first game at least.
Uh, yeah, when arenas in U.S. cities are completely empty once the NHL
season starts up again, it will be because the "numerous" American "hockey
fans" are "boycotting" the games....

Ragnarok73
--
"Life is warfare and the sojourn of a stranger in a strange land." - Marcus
Aurelius
Mario R
2004-11-19 18:44:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Evil
When the game finally get back I truly hope that the fans will send a
message to the owners and players by EVERYONE in EVERY city Boycotting the
first game. I for one will never go to another NHL game (unless its free)
but the people who are fixed on actually going should show some balls and
skip at least the first game.
Empty fucking rinks across the league on opening night, what a site that
would be.
Couldn't agree more. Course I've been on this page for a long time. Don't
know if you remember but when I 1st got on here a couple years back I asked
many questions about how people could continue to believe in bloated pro
sports today? How can they continue to be fans? That position wasn't
popular back then, it sure is now! I hope the rinks stay empty. Haven't
missed NHL hockey, haven't missed the latest spoiled baby doesn't wanna play
here controversy, none of it. If any of these NHLPA pukes are on the tube I
just wanna turn the channel. Stay in Europe ya selfish fucks!
Hockeyguy
2004-11-19 22:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario R
Post by Dr. Evil
When the game finally get back I truly hope that the fans will send a
message to the owners and players by EVERYONE in EVERY city Boycotting the
first game. I for one will never go to another NHL game (unless its free)
but the people who are fixed on actually going should show some balls and
skip at least the first game.
Empty fucking rinks across the league on opening night, what a site that
would be.
Couldn't agree more. Course I've been on this page for a long time. Don't
know if you remember but when I 1st got on here a couple years back I asked
many questions about how people could continue to believe in bloated pro
sports today? How can they continue to be fans? That position wasn't
popular back then, it sure is now! I hope the rinks stay empty. Haven't
missed NHL hockey, haven't missed the latest spoiled baby doesn't wanna play
here controversy, none of it. If any of these NHLPA pukes are on the tube I
just wanna turn the channel. Stay in Europe ya selfish fucks!
Well at least you are open about it.... It is not the players - it is this
ex-basketball guy that is screwing it up. Tell me, if you were a player at
their level that you would not also go for everything you can get. I have
never met a guy (pro-player or not) yet that says....hey boss, that is just
too much money - take some back. For that matter you will never hear that
come out of an owner's month either with ticket prices.

I am not on either side but I am a free market guy and the supply/demand
market sets the price for players - and we know who drives the market.
Also if the owners are serious about their problems - let the players see
their books. Don't wait for that to happen - so the players do not trust
the owners and so we are right back at the owners.

It is easy to blame the players .... I just do not see the argument....or at
least I do not see the argument that tips the balance of the blame on the
players...
Barton Oleksy
2004-11-19 23:13:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hockeyguy
Post by Mario R
Post by Dr. Evil
When the game finally get back I truly hope that the fans will send a
message to the owners and players by EVERYONE in EVERY city Boycotting
the
Post by Mario R
Post by Dr. Evil
first game. I for one will never go to another NHL game (unless its
free)
Post by Mario R
Post by Dr. Evil
but the people who are fixed on actually going should show some balls
and
Post by Mario R
Post by Dr. Evil
skip at least the first game.
Empty fucking rinks across the league on opening night, what a site that
would be.
Couldn't agree more. Course I've been on this page for a long time. Don't
know if you remember but when I 1st got on here a couple years back I
asked
Post by Mario R
many questions about how people could continue to believe in bloated pro
sports today? How can they continue to be fans? That position wasn't
popular back then, it sure is now! I hope the rinks stay empty. Haven't
missed NHL hockey, haven't missed the latest spoiled baby doesn't wanna
play
Post by Mario R
here controversy, none of it. If any of these NHLPA pukes are on the tube
I
Post by Mario R
just wanna turn the channel. Stay in Europe ya selfish fucks!
Well at least you are open about it.... It is not the players - it is this
ex-basketball guy that is screwing it up. Tell me, if you were a player at
their level that you would not also go for everything you can get. I have
never met a guy (pro-player or not) yet that says....hey boss, that is just
too much money - take some back. For that matter you will never hear that
come out of an owner's month either with ticket prices.
I am not on either side but I am a free market guy and the supply/demand
market sets the price for players - and we know who drives the market.
Also if the owners are serious about their problems - let the players see
their books. Don't wait for that to happen - so the players do not trust
the owners and so we are right back at the owners.
It is easy to blame the players .... I just do not see the argument....or at
least I do not see the argument that tips the balance of the blame on the
players...
It's true that they legally used the previous CBA to their benefit, and
it was just some rich (and/or stupid) GMs & owners that allowed salaries
to escalate like they did. So what that makes clear is that the owners
can't be trusted to regulate themselves to keep the *league* as a whole
healthy.

Therefore, tying salaries to revenues (like in other pro sports leagues)
will take away the ability of a few rich (and/or stupid) teams to wreck
the salary structure for the rest of the league.

But for me, the bottom line is this - if the owners don't get a good
enough deal in the new CBA, we can say goodbye to my Oilers. Therefore,
I'm with the owners in the current stalemate.

Go Owners Go! ;-)

Bart
Mario R
2004-11-20 05:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hockeyguy
Well at least you are open about it.... It is not the players - it is this
ex-basketball guy that is screwing it up. Tell me, if you were a player at
their level that you would not also go for everything you can get.
I have> never met a guy (pro-player or not) yet that says....hey boss, that
is just
Post by Hockeyguy
too much money - take some back.
heh, I AM that guy that you've never met and I'm sure theres others like
me. . I'm the guy thats gladly taken a cut in pay to be doing what I want to
do where I want to do it. My current job is just feel good written all over
it and thats whats important to me. Its not just about the $. Its about
quality of life and quality of work life. So many of these players leave
good situations, good supportive teams, and their fans for an increase thats
in the neighborhood of say 10%. At their usual salary that increase while
sounding like a lot effects no significant difference in their standard of
living. Cujo for example SHOULD have stayed in Edmonton.


For that matter you will never hear that
Post by Hockeyguy
come out of an owner's month either with ticket prices.
Don't get me wrong, I'm tired of the whole circus. Its time for a new
product to set up tent.
Post by Hockeyguy
I am not on either side but I am a free market guy and the supply/demand
market sets the price for players - and we know who drives the market.
Not as simple as that. Canada and the US governments from civic to
provincial or state to federal have for years granted concessions, tax
breaks, have paid for the facilities, and have basically done everything
they could to entice the pro teams. This has all been done under the false
belief that Pro hockey teams create/bring immeasurable wealth to
municipalities. The faulty economics of the pro sports shell game have been
under attack now for several years from leading analysts. Benefit has always
been overstated.
Post by Hockeyguy
Also if the owners are serious about their problems - let the players see
their books.
The only books they will see are the ones that pass mustard with the IRS or
Revenue Canada. Unless you're anti Levitt and pro forbes on this I'm not
sure what you're saying.

Don't wait for that to happen - so the players do not trust
Post by Hockeyguy
the owners and so we are right back at the owners.
Who cares if they don't trust the owners. As a rule people who are
multi-millionaires likely shouldn't be trusted ;) Has it now gone to the
point that in addition to forking over millions for mediocre players
possessed of the skill of say George Laraque that the owners also have to be
nice, charming and trustworthy? I don't get this trust thing the players are
very well compensated and as long as the checks are printed not sure that
the trust thing should even enter the picture.
Post by Hockeyguy
It is easy to blame the players .... I just do not see the argument....or at
least I do not see the argument that tips the balance of the blame on the
players...
Present CBA through arbitration, and the negotiation echo effect of
arbitration decisions ie significant pricepoint increase due to arbitration
decisions that set precedents for many like contact decisions......minimum
10% needed contractual increase needed to retain a player even if said
player had a shitty year. You'll note theres no right to decrease salary, no
right to contract walk away if the players performance is deemed
unsatisfactory...its all presently one-sided.
Its interesting that many people warn the owners of collusion but when any
NHLPA member/agent is said to be negotiating below percieved marked value
Goodenow or his cronies fire off memos, have conference calls to set the
situation straight. Any deal settling for less than the NHLPA deems
appropriate is highly scrutinized. That to me represents collusion and its
been going on for years.
Dr. Evil
2004-11-20 06:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario R
Not as simple as that. Canada and the US governments from civic to
provincial or state to federal have for years granted concessions, tax
breaks, have paid for the facilities, and have basically done everything
they could to entice the pro teams. This has all been done under the false
belief that Pro hockey teams create/bring immeasurable wealth to
municipalities. The faulty economics of the pro sports shell game have been
under attack now for several years from leading analysts. Benefit has always
been overstated.
The Government wants us to watch sports not watch what government does or
does not.
Post by Mario R
Present CBA through arbitration, and the negotiation echo effect of
arbitration decisions ie significant pricepoint increase due to arbitration
decisions that set precedents for many like contact decisions......minimum
10% needed contractual increase needed to retain a player even if said
player had a shitty year. You'll note theres no right to decrease salary, no
right to contract walk away if the players performance is deemed
unsatisfactory...its all presently one-sided.
Its interesting that many people warn the owners of collusion but when any
NHLPA member/agent is said to be negotiating below percieved marked value
Goodenow or his cronies fire off memos, have conference calls to set the
situation straight. Any deal settling for less than the NHLPA deems
appropriate is highly scrutinized. That to me represents collusion and its
been going on for years.
EXACTLY!!!!
Look at the NFL if any team gets some fucked up head case or some loser who
doesn't perform they just release them. Albeit they take the hit that year
on the salary cap but there is no obligation to sign these fucking bums to a
10% increase especially if you are a small market team and can't afford
them.

its TOTAL BULLSHIT.

THIS LEAGUE NEEDS AN ENEMA
Post by Mario R
Post by Hockeyguy
Well at least you are open about it.... It is not the players - it is
this
Post by Hockeyguy
ex-basketball guy that is screwing it up. Tell me, if you were a player
at
Post by Hockeyguy
their level that you would not also go for everything you can get.
I have> never met a guy (pro-player or not) yet that says....hey boss, that
is just
Post by Hockeyguy
too much money - take some back.
heh, I AM that guy that you've never met and I'm sure theres others like
me. . I'm the guy thats gladly taken a cut in pay to be doing what I want to
do where I want to do it. My current job is just feel good written all over
it and thats whats important to me. Its not just about the $. Its about
quality of life and quality of work life. So many of these players leave
good situations, good supportive teams, and their fans for an increase thats
in the neighborhood of say 10%. At their usual salary that increase while
sounding like a lot effects no significant difference in their standard of
living. Cujo for example SHOULD have stayed in Edmonton.
For that matter you will never hear that
Post by Hockeyguy
come out of an owner's month either with ticket prices.
Don't get me wrong, I'm tired of the whole circus. Its time for a new
product to set up tent.
Post by Hockeyguy
I am not on either side but I am a free market guy and the supply/demand
market sets the price for players - and we know who drives the market.
Not as simple as that. Canada and the US governments from civic to
provincial or state to federal have for years granted concessions, tax
breaks, have paid for the facilities, and have basically done everything
they could to entice the pro teams. This has all been done under the false
belief that Pro hockey teams create/bring immeasurable wealth to
municipalities. The faulty economics of the pro sports shell game have been
under attack now for several years from leading analysts. Benefit has always
been overstated.
Post by Hockeyguy
Also if the owners are serious about their problems - let the players see
their books.
The only books they will see are the ones that pass mustard with the IRS or
Revenue Canada. Unless you're anti Levitt and pro forbes on this I'm not
sure what you're saying.
Don't wait for that to happen - so the players do not trust
Post by Hockeyguy
the owners and so we are right back at the owners.
Who cares if they don't trust the owners. As a rule people who are
multi-millionaires likely shouldn't be trusted ;) Has it now gone to the
point that in addition to forking over millions for mediocre players
possessed of the skill of say George Laraque that the owners also have to be
nice, charming and trustworthy? I don't get this trust thing the players are
very well compensated and as long as the checks are printed not sure that
the trust thing should even enter the picture.
Post by Hockeyguy
It is easy to blame the players .... I just do not see the argument....or
at
Post by Hockeyguy
least I do not see the argument that tips the balance of the blame on the
players...
Present CBA through arbitration, and the negotiation echo effect of
arbitration decisions ie significant pricepoint increase due to arbitration
decisions that set precedents for many like contact decisions......minimum
10% needed contractual increase needed to retain a player even if said
player had a shitty year. You'll note theres no right to decrease salary, no
right to contract walk away if the players performance is deemed
unsatisfactory...its all presently one-sided.
Its interesting that many people warn the owners of collusion but when any
NHLPA member/agent is said to be negotiating below percieved marked value
Goodenow or his cronies fire off memos, have conference calls to set the
situation straight. Any deal settling for less than the NHLPA deems
appropriate is highly scrutinized. That to me represents collusion and its
been going on for years.
Hockeyguy
2004-11-20 16:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario R
heh, I AM that guy that you've never met and I'm sure theres others like
me. . I'm the guy thats gladly taken a cut in pay to be doing what I want to
do where I want to do it. My current job is just feel good written all over
...snip
Well that is great - but there are lots of people who like their job but do
not give money back while doing it. And no one who has a paycheck says -
here boss take some back (Al Kaline???).

If one has to make a black and white call I think it still comes down to the
owners. If they are in that bad a shape let them open the books to the
players union - put up or shut up. I do not want some independent auditor
that was not selected by both sides to look a limited sub-set of criteria
and make a call. They will never open the books so how bad can it be.
Christ Chrysler opened the books when they were in bad shape...blah, blah,
blah...

The NFL which is probably the most revenue balanced league and healthy and
has a cap. However now the NFL union is complaining over in that league
that the ownership is excluding something like 30% of their revenue. So the
cap is not the end all be all for resolving this situation.

It is all a shell game with owners. The players are the game - no one pays
to see the owners skate. If they league/owners can not seems to act
fiscally responsible it is not up to the players to do so. Like every
human on the planet they have to take responsibility for their own actions.
That said the league should also force the contraction of the league -
Pittsburgh, Carolina, etc...
Mario R
2004-11-20 17:41:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hockeyguy
Post by Mario R
heh, I AM that guy that you've never met and I'm sure theres others like
me. . I'm the guy thats gladly taken a cut in pay to be doing what I
want
Post by Hockeyguy
to
Post by Mario R
do where I want to do it. My current job is just feel good written all
over
Post by Mario R
...snip
Well that is great - but there are lots of people who like their job but do
not give money back while doing it. And no one who has a paycheck says -
here boss take some back (Al Kaline???).
If one has to make a black and white call I think it still comes down to the
owners. If they are in that bad a shape let them open the books to the
players union - put up or shut up.
They've opened some of the books and the players have cried foul that its
not the real books. The players want to see their own percieved notion of
the real books which don't exist. Again, the #'s that pass IRS or Revenue
Canada scrutiny are the accepted figures. Take it or leave it! No need for
the owners to now hire accountants to do new ledgers just to placate the
association. The forbes article, as has been explored in many ng threads
makes the same shark jump that the owners should disclose all income from
collateral businesses and any integrated revenue streams. Why? So that there
could then be justification for more pay? That theres not enough currently?
I don't see any Okie membership in NHLPA, they look pretty well fed to
me....btw why in your mind is their no onus on the players to put up or shut
up if "they're in such bad shape"?
You've bought the line about why the association won't accept a cap and even
the forbes article while aligning with the players still attests that the
league lost 96M by forbes own #'s which include corrolary revenue streams
the past season. Maybe you missed the desperate Ted Saskin's championing of
the article as if it offered any cause specific vindication instead of the
empty rabble and jumped conclusions it contained ironically while offering
#'s that actually support the NHL loss side of the ledger.

I do not want some independent auditor
Post by Hockeyguy
that was not selected by both sides to look a limited sub-set of criteria
and make a call. They will never open the books so how bad can it be.
Christ Chrysler opened the books when they were in bad shape...blah, blah,
blah...
I think forbes already filled your Christmas list. They look more like
Levitt than they realize...the #'s are for losses league wide.

Year Forbes Levitt
2003/4 - $ 96mil $224mil
2002/3 $123mil $273mil

Chrysler still knew their was upside revenue potential, $'s to be made with
the house in order, hard to see where any new revenue streams will spring up
out of the overused dry well in question.
Post by Hockeyguy
The NFL which is probably the most revenue balanced league and healthy and
has a cap. However now the NFL union is complaining over in that league
that the ownership is excluding something like 30% of their revenue. So the
cap is not the end all be all for resolving this situation.
and this means what to you? That its not working because someone complains?
Its working great!Not disclosing 30% of their revenue, big deal, welcome to
the world! What successful owner in the world doesn't do that? I'll turn the
tables for you. If YOU were an owner of multimillion revenue businesses
would you not attempt to stem the tide of some tax $ by hiring accountants
to write off as much revenue as possible and do some clever multishifting of
accounts and revenue between businesses all of which is deemed legal by
taxation definitions? If you're the free market guy you describe you most
certainly would!
Another take, or reframe, for the players is that maybe they should be
happy, instead of envious, that the owners have other revenue streams that
serve to ensure that the cheques don't bounce. Take the gravy and don't howl
at the moon like your hungry. If the players want in on big business revenue
stream potentials maybe they should get in on that game.....
Post by Hockeyguy
It is all a shell game with owners. The players are the game - no one pays
to see the owners skate.
This ones been done like dry turkey dinner. The fans pay to see maybe 10%
of NHLPA membership. The rest are non-special, trap friendly, filler, that
have barely seperated themselves from the potential replacement player
market pack of thousands of comparables world wide. Under even the most
severe wage rollback we'd lose maybe a 100players who were skilled but are
also close to retirement age and who had already made their significant bulk
of coin. Being that these include such names as Roenick and Jagr many fans
wouldn't cry too long.

If they league/owners can not seems to act
Post by Hockeyguy
fiscally responsible it is not up to the players to do so. Like every
human on the planet they have to take responsibility for their own actions.
That said the league should also force the contraction of the league -
Pittsburgh, Carolina, etc...
So heres a commonly posed question? Why don't the NHLPA membership, with all
their bread, legal expertise, endless visions of dancing dollars, just form
their own league?

Answer: Because then they'd have to pay themselves............
Hockeyguy
2004-11-21 15:59:14 UTC
Permalink
You know it is interesting to see how strong the anti-players positions are
in this deal. It is beginning to surface in Football and basketball - and
just got worst in basketball. This struggle between ownership and workers
has been going on for a long time. Neither side is completely right - I
still recall how the unions were stubborn and killed Eastern Airlines.
But something has to give her. I understand your point of view - although
I do not completely agree with it. Yes, as an owner I would absolutely
shelter as much cash as possible but that goes to my point about the players
not trusting the owners number - hell, Forbes comes out with a far smaller
number that some league appointed accounting firm. Christ what does that
tell you....it tells me no one has the number and opening the book to the
Player Union would cement the point completely. But we know that is not
going to happen - so we get the situation we are in.

Something has got to give here or the owners are going to kill the league.
My idea is expect some rookie cap, lowering the window for FA, some
semi-cap whereas you can match an offer to exceed your cap on your own
player - the Larry Bird rule, arbitration lives and hopeful the league
contracts to remove the "we are losing money" teams like buffalo, Carolina,
Pittsburgh. I would be extremely interested in seeing the P/L statements
on each team in the league.
Mario R
2004-11-21 18:33:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hockeyguy
You know it is interesting to see how strong the anti-players positions are
in this deal. It is beginning to surface in Football and basketball - and
just got worst in basketball. This struggle between ownership and workers
has been going on for a long time. Neither side is completely right - I
still recall how the unions were stubborn and killed Eastern Airlines.
But something has to give her. I understand your point of view - although
I do not completely agree with it. Yes, as an owner I would absolutely
shelter as much cash as possible but that goes to my point about the players
not trusting the owners number - hell, Forbes comes out with a far smaller
number that some league appointed accounting firm. Christ what does that
tell you...
It tells me that forbes used an analysis that was contextually based on what
the NHLPA membership wants to look at and their projections still came out
on the wrong side of zero. What does it tell you? Both appraisals have
indicated significant loss. Sure it indicates that nobody knows what the
*real* figure is but the two figures, one NHL friendly, the other with more
of an NHLPA leaning tell us pretty much where the apple would fall. My
point with this is that its clear that the # isn't say 1Billion in league
net profits and why not? Any usual investment with this much capita,
uncertainty, tied into it ought to have a reasonable projection of profits
beyond 1 billion in good years. You're heavily discounting that even If the
NHL made several 100M it would still be a worse investment than the weakest
GIC or Bond fund. The distribution of $ in this business where players make
75% of known revenue and the owners make arguably zilch is insane. Show me
any other business outside of corporate welfare cases in Canada that is ;),
that operates in this way. The players in the league make in excess of 1.8
B, the owners make an apparent negative amount?!?!

.it tells me no one has the number and opening the book to the
Post by Hockeyguy
Player Union would cement the point completely. But we know that is not
going to happen - so we get the situation we are in.
The book and the #'s that the NHLPA are requestig don't as I say exist.
Frankly theres nothing stopping the NHLPA from requesting their own
detailed,outside, audit using their own interpretation of collateral income
and coming up with some reasonable figures. They WON"T do that because then
their shell game is over. Maybe you don't see that their one resolute
sticking point is nothing but contrived. They're living in a house of cards
and just attempting a *wheres the ace, can anybody please quickly find an
ace* bluff. Ted Saskins embarrassing support of the forbes article tells you
everything you need to know about the desperation. The "show me the books"
gambit is an obstinate ploy designed only to provide some small foothold to
avoid an income fall down the precipice. The fall is in the mail however and
at this point its just magnitude to be decided. Nothing but posturing of
course but the NHLPA side lacks ANY credibility. Especially given the
current Euro safety net.........gigs up, time to roll with the punches
Post by Hockeyguy
Something has got to give here or the owners are going to kill the league.
players and agents? I believe you're a Wings fan so maybe you don't realize
but the league has already been wrecked for most fans for many years. In
Edmonton its an obvious dozen years of limited ability to retain talent.
We've been a farm team, its been an unstated 2-3 teir league, and even in a
hockey mad market like this the bloom is definitely off the rose. The
average joe is sick of the shit and its "hell no, I won't go" Its only a
matter of time till theres some peelback on the current tax concessions
incentives that currently make pro sports *viable*. Once the corporates have
cut the fat the lady will have to sing......
Hockeyguy
2004-11-22 21:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Snip...

You I believe are an Edmonton fan and it must be a very painful situation.
Yes, I am a long time Wings fan and we also suffered thought some very dark
years but front office talent and marketing improved the situation in
Detroit. Fortunately we kicked the avs butts more than often than not and
life is good in that regard. But the point is you do not need a cap to be
profitable and to win in this league. Look at NJ Devils - traditionally
one of the lower payroll teams, profitable and wins more cups than the
higher payroll teams (I will avoid the NY Rangers joke.) Like the wings -
the NJ situation comes down to front office management talent and fiscal
responsibility and well - brains. Look at TB and Calgary last year -
another example.

I can not prove it but suspect that the owners crying loudest about the
loses are the same ones that went for expansion to generate $$ and expanded
the league into losing cities/markets. Now those new franchises are losing
cash and they are also crying - just ugly. So we have stupid owners and
businessmen that now the players have to bail out...sorry no pity for them.

However even with some idiot owners something still has got to give here.
I know the owners are never going to open the books and frankly I am
surprised they just do not raise the price of tickets to cover the losses -
except at the real boat anchor franchises that are contributing probably 80%
of the overall loses and these franchises need to go. This gets to my
point about it would be interesting to see the P/L on each team. The
players are going to hate this but to get the overall league healthy I
suspect the Buffalo's, Carolina, Atlanta, Pittsburgh need to go. I hate to
see this in any city but my gut tells me they account for the majority of
the loses. I would add Phoenix to that but I just can not believe Wayne
baby would invest in a losing situation and then complain about it losing
money.

The real interesting question or activity is to speculate on what the final
settlement will be....I see the following..

1) Some kind of luxury tax - that only goes to teams that meet some $$
standard for payroll. You do not want a team lowball salaries and payroll
just to make money on the luxury tax money that comes their way.
2) Lower rookie salary limits.
4) Some league contraction (I hope)
5) Arbitration lives


Frankly I think this is a fair deal. I do not see what is wrong with a
luxury tax as opposed to some form of CAP with a Larry Bird exemption. I
just do not think the players are every going to agree to a cap in any
form...but I have been wrong before....
Ragnarok73
2004-11-22 22:17:03 UTC
Permalink
But the point is you do not need a cap to be profitable and to win in this
league.
Oh, but you do- just look at my point later on in my reply for the
examples.
Look at NJ Devils - traditionally one of the lower payroll teams,
profitable and
wins more cups than the higher payroll teams (I will avoid the NY Rangers
joke.)
They've won 3 but not since their first one have they been in the lower
half of the league in terms of salaries.
Like the wings - the NJ situation comes down to front office management
talent
and fiscal responsibility and well - brains. Look at TB and Calgary last
year -
another example.
The Wings have a payroll over $60 million and you're talking about them
and "fiscal responsibility"? Are you kidding me? BTW, those "frugal"
Devils had a payroll over $50 million last year which puts them into the top
10. If you actually think that TB will STILL have a $36 million dollar
payroll if they want to keep that team together then you're even more out of
touch with reality than I suspected. Point at the Flames and I'll simply
point at the Cup winners for the DECADE before the Lightning did it- they're
easy to remember because there have been only 5 of them: the Stars, Devils,
Avs, and Wings with the Rangers buying their way to a cup in '94. Notice
anything in common among those teams?
I can not prove it but suspect that the owners crying loudest about the
loses are the same ones that went for expansion to generate $$ and expanded
the league into losing cities/markets. Now those new franchises are losing
cash and they are also crying - just ugly. So we have stupid owners and
businessmen that now the players have to bail out...sorry no pity for them.
No doubt a large part of the problem is the expansion of the league that
was quite frankly too much too soon, thanks to Bettman. Also, it's
certainly the fault of a few owners (like Mike Ilitch) who decided to buy up
just about every player with any amount of skill or keeping them around by
paying them ridiculously large sums of money who have been largely
responsible for the imbalance in the current economic system. But the
league is now looking at steps to ensure that there will be a way that ALL
the teams can survive, and it's now the players who are crying because their
cash cow will soon be cut off. Blame certainly deserves to be placed on
both sides, but IMO most of it now falls onto the players' shoulders since
they are now doing their best to block the implementation of a new system
that would bring those few dumb owners (like Ilitch) under control.

<spurious logic snipped>

So it's the owners' fault that they expanded and made bad business
decisions but now it's still their fault when they try to come up with a
solution to bring the economics of the league under control? Dude, you
really ought to think about what you're saying before you post.
The real interesting question or activity is to speculate on what the final
settlement will be....I see the following..
1) Some kind of luxury tax - that only goes to teams that meet some $$
standard for payroll. You do not want a team lowball salaries and payroll
just to make money on the luxury tax money that comes their way.
2) Lower rookie salary limits.
4) Some league contraction (I hope)
5) Arbitration lives
No, the league needs a hard salary cap. The advantages of the cap are
simple:

1) You will no longer see owners offering large sums of money to players
that don't deserve it (ie: Todd Marchant's 3-million-dollar-a-year contract
in Columbus) since they would have to work with a certain amount of space
under the cap.

2) Because owners would no longer offer large sums of money to those
players, there would be more of them available on the market which means
that parity is created instantly by the fact that more teams will have
access to the talent that's available in the pool.

3) It's still a good system for good players since teams will still pay
them large sums. When it gets right down to it, the cap encourages a system
to exist where star players and pluggers each get the money they deserve.
(eg: Peyton Manning who makes at least 9 million US a season with his
current contract with the Colts).

4) Finally, a hard cap is good because it's the proven way to keep certain
money-tossing owners under firm control. Yes, it's possible to circumvent
the cap temporarily (back-loading contracts is the most commonly used
method) to stack your team. However, any team that tries it and fails to
win can end up paying the price for years afterwards (just look at the 49ers
over the past 6 seasons for a good example). This system is great for
encouraging teams to make good management and coaching decisions rather than
throw money at the problem.
Frankly I think this is a fair deal. I do not see what is wrong with a
luxury tax as opposed to some form of CAP with a Larry Bird exemption. I
just do not think the players are every going to agree to a cap in any
form...but I have been wrong before....
Yes, you certainly have.
Hockeyguy
2004-11-23 23:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnarok73
But the point is you do not need a cap to be profitable and to win in this
league.
The Wings have a payroll over $60 million and you're talking about them
and "fiscal responsibility"? Are you kidding me?
This is a wild guess but I doubt the wings are losing money so as a
franchise they are fiscally responsible - plus the owner has the right to
risk what he wants. The rangers are a joke. The wings franchise is worth
much more than the Nashville franchise and it is obvious as to why. And
Ilitch paid that premium - it is called value and value is measured in
revenue/profit/goodwill and you pay a premium for value and he did. With
Cap thinking the wings franchise now is put in a position of having "equal
salary" value compared to the Nashville or Columbus franchise despite the
fact that Ilitch paid a premium to be able to field a better team - that is
nuts. Clearly with a cap the wings will make more profit than Nashville -
but Ilitch wants the best team he can afford and so do the local fans. So
he should be allow to spend it - hell that is why he bought the wings and
not Penguins or Carolina!!!



Rank has privilege and location is everything - always has been and always
will be. I do not want a socialized league. If anything get rid of the
money losing franchises like Pitt, Buffalo, etc.... thinning the herd is
part of nature...although I will feel bad for the fans but frankly they (or
the local businesses) did not support the team enough to keep it. Either
that or some idiot owner ran it into the ground - which is my initial point.
Want to strike a balance - go with the luxury tax as that is pain enough for
those that can afford it and ensure that you do not have any bottom feeder
franchises that live off the kick-back. But that will not fly either
because the strong ownership teams do not want to pay the salary of opposing
players.



The cap is not the answer, as the stupid owners will just figure out some
other way to screw up their franchises. It isn't the players - you ask for
a million bucks and some owner gives it to you - you cannot blame the guy
that asked...
Lemieux
2004-11-24 03:08:41 UTC
Permalink
"Hockeyguy"
Post by Hockeyguy
The cap is not the answer, as the stupid owners will just figure out some
other way to screw up their franchises. It isn't the players - you ask for
a million bucks and some owner gives it to you - you cannot blame the guy
that asked...
And now those very same owners figured out they can no longer afford such stupidity anymore and demanded to fix the situation.
Then these very same players cry fouls, refused to negotiate and instead choose to make a few thousands oversea.
Yeah, THAT's really the owners' faults.
Some logic you have.
Buff
2004-11-24 05:41:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hockeyguy
Post by Ragnarok73
But the point is you do not need a cap to be profitable and to win in
this
Post by Ragnarok73
league.
The Wings have a payroll over $60 million and you're talking about them
and "fiscal responsibility"? Are you kidding me?
This is a wild guess but I doubt the wings are losing money so as a
franchise they are fiscally responsible - plus the owner has the right to
risk what he wants. The rangers are a joke. The wings franchise is worth
much more than the Nashville franchise and it is obvious as to why. And
Ilitch paid that premium - it is called value and value is measured in
revenue/profit/goodwill and you pay a premium for value and he did. With
Cap thinking the wings franchise now is put in a position of having "equal
salary" value compared to the Nashville or Columbus franchise despite the
fact that Ilitch paid a premium to be able to field a better team - that is
nuts. Clearly with a cap the wings will make more profit than Nashville -
but Ilitch wants the best team he can afford and so do the local fans. So
he should be allow to spend it - hell that is why he bought the wings and
not Penguins or Carolina!!!
Actually the Red Wings are losing money. I'll have to ask somebody for
help with a source here, but I remember hearing that the Wings need to
make it far in the playoffs to make money. They spend the money on the
talent so they can have playoff success and make money. As we've seen,
it hasn't worked so well the last two years. I don't know how far they
need to make it but I'd suggest win or lose they need to make it to the
final round to make money. IIRC the Forbes report, although criticezed
as greatly inaccurate, also shows that the Wings lost money this past
year. I'd be willing to bet that the report by the accountant who the
NHL hired (whose name eludes me at the moment) will show a loss in the
Red Wings books too.
x***@earthlink.net
2004-11-25 15:45:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buff
Post by Hockeyguy
Post by Ragnarok73
But the point is you do not need a cap to be profitable and to win in
this
Post by Ragnarok73
league.
The Wings have a payroll over $60 million and you're talking about them
and "fiscal responsibility"? Are you kidding me?
This is a wild guess but I doubt the wings are losing money so as a
franchise they are fiscally responsible - plus the owner has the right to
risk what he wants. The rangers are a joke. The wings franchise is worth
much more than the Nashville franchise and it is obvious as to why. And
Ilitch paid that premium - it is called value and value is measured in
revenue/profit/goodwill and you pay a premium for value and he did. With
Cap thinking the wings franchise now is put in a position of having "equal
salary" value compared to the Nashville or Columbus franchise despite the
fact that Ilitch paid a premium to be able to field a better team - that is
nuts. Clearly with a cap the wings will make more profit than Nashville -
but Ilitch wants the best team he can afford and so do the local fans. So
he should be allow to spend it - hell that is why he bought the wings and
not Penguins or Carolina!!!
Actually the Red Wings are losing money. I'll have to ask somebody for
help with a source here, but I remember hearing that the Wings need to
make it far in the playoffs to make money. They spend the money on the
talent so they can have playoff success and make money. As we've seen,
it hasn't worked so well the last two years. I don't know how far they
need to make it but I'd suggest win or lose they need to make it to the
final round to make money.
A couple years ago it was into the third round. With the way their
payroll has increased in recent years if the series are short they
might make little or none at all even if they won the Stanley Cup. The
figure I saw thrown around was they made $1 million per playoff games.
That means if all the series went to maximum they's gross $16 million
Which would only be enough to pay a Lidstrom and Shanahan. I believe
Detroit's payroll was $69 million last year. Now I'd like someone to
explain how they could have made money last year, the year before,
etc.
Post by Buff
IIRC the Forbes report, although criticezed
as greatly inaccurate, also shows that the Wings lost money this past
year. I'd be willing to bet that the report by the accountant who the
NHL hired (whose name eludes me at the moment) will show a loss in the
Red Wings books too.
Ragnarok73
2004-11-25 08:08:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hockeyguy
This is a wild guess but I doubt the wings are losing money so as a
franchise they are fiscally responsible - plus the owner has the right to
risk what he wants. The rangers are a joke. The wings franchise is worth
much more than the Nashville franchise and it is obvious as to why. And
Ilitch paid that premium - it is called value and value is measured in
revenue/profit/goodwill and you pay a premium for value and he did. With
Cap thinking the wings franchise now is put in a position of having "equal
salary" value compared to the Nashville or Columbus franchise despite the
fact that Ilitch paid a premium to be able to field a better team - that is
nuts. Clearly with a cap the wings will make more profit than Nashville -
but Ilitch wants the best team he can afford and so do the local fans. So
he should be allow to spend it - hell that is why he bought the wings and
not Penguins or Carolina!!!
So it doesn't matter that by overspending on players he's driving up their
"value" in the marketplace and helping to worsen the already bad economic
situation that exists? Get a clue, my friend, then try posting again with
your actual insights. People like Ilitch are part of the problem, not the
solution.
Post by Hockeyguy
Rank has privilege and location is everything - always has been and always
will be. I do not want a socialized league. If anything get rid of the
money losing franchises like Pitt, Buffalo, etc.... thinning the herd is
part of nature...although I will feel bad for the fans but frankly they (or
the local businesses) did not support the team enough to keep it. Either
that or some idiot owner ran it into the ground - which is my initial point.
Want to strike a balance - go with the luxury tax as that is pain enough for
those that can afford it and ensure that you do not have any bottom feeder
franchises that live off the kick-back. But that will not fly either
because the strong ownership teams do not want to pay the salary of opposing
players.
So rich owners should be able to spend what they want even if it skews the
market but then they should pay a tax that they don't want if they want to
overspend? Your logic here is blinding <sarcasm>. That's why a CAP is
good: it sets a simple upper limit on what teams can spend on their
payrolls. It's good for the owners AND for the players because each one
gets the pay he deserves. It's also good for the league because when all
teams are on a level economic playing field, it helps to ensure more
financial stability. I'm sorry if the fans of teams like the Wings aren't
gonna like the cap because it means their team can't just overpay a talented
player to play for them, but for the good of the league, a cap must be put
in place.
Post by Hockeyguy
The cap is not the answer, as the stupid owners will just figure out some
other way to screw up their franchises. It isn't the players - you ask for
a million bucks and some owner gives it to you - you cannot blame the guy
that asked...
So it's the fault of the owners if they overpay the player that asked for
a larger salary, but if they try to fix it it's also their fault because the
players don't want a cap? Pull your head out of your ass, ok? We're
talking about a league that STILL makes most of its money from gate revenues
(re: paid attendance) at their games rather than T.V.and the average salary
in the NHL is over 1 million? That's as fucked up a situation as you'll
ever see in pro sports. Cap salaries, and you'll stop the ridiculous
inflation of player salaries because stupid owners like Ilitch will not be
able to overpay guys to play for them.

Ragnarok73
--
"Life is warfare and the sojourn of a stranger in a strange land." - Marcus
Aurelius
Paul L
2004-11-21 16:54:27 UTC
Permalink
"Mario R" <***@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:1lLnd.284791$***@pd7tw3no...

pardon the snip ...
Post by Mario R
So heres a commonly posed question? Why don't the NHLPA membership, with all
their bread, legal expertise, endless visions of dancing dollars, just form
their own league?
Answer: Because then they'd have to pay themselves............
LOL !!! Perfect !

Let the Thrashers, Panthers etc etc etc players figure out how to finance a
salary structure
on a 1.5 share without charging $200 for a ticket.

Paul
Ragnarok73
2004-11-22 21:32:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hockeyguy
Well that is great - but there are lots of people who like their job but do
not give money back while doing it. And no one who has a paycheck says -
here boss take some back (Al Kaline???).
This isn't about asking the worker to give back what he's already been
paid. This is about controlling the 5% of owners who are overpaying
underqualified workers and inflating the market value of everyone else as a
result. The NHL is a league that isn't big enough to have a system where
the players take over 70% of the total revenue from a league whose total TV
contracts don't even equal what the NFL would make just from the Super Bowl,
never mind what the NBA and MLB make from their TV contracts. Any league
where the average salary is over a million even though it's primary source
of revenue is STILL gate receipts has something seriously wrong with it.
Post by Hockeyguy
If one has to make a black and white call I think it still comes down to the
owners. If they are in that bad a shape let them open the books to the
players union - put up or shut up. I do not want some independent auditor
that was not selected by both sides to look a limited sub-set of criteria
and make a call. They will never open the books so how bad can it be.
Christ Chrysler opened the books when they were in bad shape...blah, blah,
blah...
This isn't that simple- the whole reason that the owners got an
independent to start with is because the players wouldn't believe them if
THEY opened up the books.
Post by Hockeyguy
The NFL which is probably the most revenue balanced league and healthy and
has a cap. However now the NFL union is complaining over in that league
that the ownership is excluding something like 30% of their revenue. So the
cap is not the end all be all for resolving this situation.
Then what is? The NHL is a joke compared to the 3 major sports leagues in
North America (it's a bit of a stretch to call the NHL the "4th major pro
sports league" when you look at their popularity and T.V. revenue) when it
comes to the income generated by both each team and the league as a whole.
It's not nearly popular enough in the U.S. to justify paying players the
kind of large salaries that you see in the NFL, NBA, or MLB. The funny
thing here is this: those other leagues determined that a cap or other form
of salary control was needed in order to continue to grow. They all make
infinitely more money than the NHL so where the HELL does the NHLPA get the
idea that the current economic system is still the way to go? That they are
severely out of touch with reality is the most likely answer.
Post by Hockeyguy
It is all a shell game with owners. The players are the game - no one pays
to see the owners skate. If they league/owners can not seems to act
fiscally responsible it is not up to the players to do so. Like every
human on the planet they have to take responsibility for their own actions.
That said the league should also force the contraction of the league -
Pittsburgh, Carolina, etc...
Bring in the scabs, just like the NFL did back in the '80's when they were
trying to implement their cap. In the end, it's the owners who have the
money and pay the players, most of whom are mid- to low-level pluggers
anyway.

Ragnarok73
--
"Life is warfare and the sojourn of a stranger in a strange land." - Marcus
Aurelius
YourNameFirst
2004-11-20 11:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Hockeyguy wrote:

<SNIP>
Post by Hockeyguy
Well at least you are open about it.... It is not the players - it is this
ex-basketball guy that is screwing it up. Tell me, if you were a player at
their level that you would not also go for everything you can get. I have
never met a guy (pro-player or not) yet that says....hey boss, that is just
too much money - take some back.
<SNIP>

I have. Al Kaline. *Sigh* those were the days.

_______________________________________________________________________________
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Lemieux
2004-11-21 10:29:18 UTC
Permalink
OK, so a few owners messed it up.
Now they realized they have messed up and demanded to fix the situation by some purposed solutions.
At the other hand, we have all these I-can't-afford-my-Ferrari-crybabies who are not even willing to talk.
And that's really the owners' faults AS OF RIGHT NOW?
Go get your fucking head some serious examination, some logic you have.

Of course it's easy to blame the screwy NHLPA, because they SHOULD be blamed.
It's people like you and Bob Assholenow that keep making the situation worse.
And have you even realized that there have already been union's members openly questioning the NHLPA's stance already?
I would assume these are not odd cases for them to have able to surface to the media.

And don't get into the books thingys.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out the current financial situation.
And the books have already been presented, just that the fucking union does not believed doesn't mean those are not the real books.
Gods forbid the owners not disclosing their other business veins.
Why on earth should they anyway?

And go back to high school economic.
Talk about supply/demand.
We have more players (supply) than the current market can afford (demand).
Econ 101, supply > demand, price drops.
THAT is free economy, but what the union doing is exactly manipulating the market and trying to prevent the so-called free economy kick into effects.
--
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-- Lemieux

"The problem is that the RIAA has the kind of money that, whether you're right or wrong, you're out of business.
It's not whether you win or lose, but whether you survive the litigation."
-- Lance Cottrell, founder and president of Anonymizer.com

"It is time for the RIAA to be held accountable for years of manipulating an entire industry
in order to stifle the growth of independent music and control Internet content and distribution channels."
-- Ann Gabriel, president of the Webcaster Alliance

"The court accepted that copyright legislation has to be read as it is, not as CRIA would like it to be."
-- Howard Knopf, an attorney who works with the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic at the University of Ottawa

"Hockeyguy"
Post by Hockeyguy
Well at least you are open about it.... It is not the players - it is this
ex-basketball guy that is screwing it up. Tell me, if you were a player at
their level that you would not also go for everything you can get. I have
never met a guy (pro-player or not) yet that says....hey boss, that is just
too much money - take some back. For that matter you will never hear that
come out of an owner's month either with ticket prices.
I am not on either side but I am a free market guy and the supply/demand
market sets the price for players - and we know who drives the market.
Also if the owners are serious about their problems - let the players see
their books. Don't wait for that to happen - so the players do not trust
the owners and so we are right back at the owners.
It is easy to blame the players .... I just do not see the argument....or at
least I do not see the argument that tips the balance of the blame on the
players...
Ogie Oglethorpe
2004-11-21 15:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lemieux
OK, so a few owners messed it up.
Now they realized they have messed up and demanded to fix the situation by some purposed solutions.
At the other hand, we have all these I-can't-afford-my-Ferrari-crybabies who are not even willing to talk.
And that's really the owners' faults AS OF RIGHT NOW?
Go get your fucking head some serious examination, some logic you have.
Of course it's easy to blame the screwy NHLPA, because they SHOULD be blamed.
It's people like you and Bob Assholenow that keep making the situation worse.
And have you even realized that there have already been union's members openly questioning the NHLPA's stance already?
I would assume these are not odd cases for them to have able to surface to the media.
And don't get into the books thingys.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out the current financial situation.
And the books have already been presented, just that the fucking union does not believed doesn't mean those are not the real books.
Gods forbid the owners not disclosing their other business veins.
Why on earth should they anyway?
And go back to high school economic.
Talk about supply/demand.
We have more players (supply) than the current market can afford (demand).
Econ 101, supply > demand, price drops.
THAT is free economy, but what the union doing is exactly manipulating the market and trying to prevent the so-called free economy kick into effects.
Fuck man are you PMSing? Fact of the matter is both sides are to blame
to some extent BUT the owners are the ones who brought this all on.

Expanding into markets where most people don't know or even care to know
what hockey is...this generated millions for them in the short term
through franchise fees. Next the got TV contracts on major US networks
that now since tanked because, in the grand scheme of things, citizens
of the USA are not hockey fans.

Bettman was the quarterback for this whole fiasco, trying to expand in
the USA. The owners saw dollar signs dancing in their heads, being the
greedy bastards that they are.

To me the ownership would have been further ahead expanding into Europe
where hockey is very popular.

Anyway where is this all leading? My Nostradamusing predictions along
with some Newtonian mathematics suggest the following for your perusal:

The players will not accept a cap + The owners will not accept a deal
unless it includes a cap + Neither side will budge = No hockey for the
2004-2005 = No draft in June 2005 = The NHL owners, for the 2005-2006
season, will begin to sign replacement players + all existing players
contracts will be declared null and void = some players will cross the
line and sign with teams of their choosing (probably their dream team as
a kid) = the owners will once again get greedy and start offering big
bucks to stack their team in their favor causing this whole clusterfuck
mess to come full circle = Lawyers will be getting very very rich = fans
will remain very very pissed = fringe teams will be very very extinct =
who gives a fuck? - let them all rot and watch reruns of games of yore.

I suggest for you to join a bowling league and fuck em all!

Ogie
Dr. Evil
2004-11-21 16:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Everyone keeps forgetting about who is really at fault.
THE AGENTS.

They work to inflate the value of BUM players in a system that ONLY benifits
the players interests. They get so much hype going that these owners (who
are not hockey sauve) bite the bait and shell out 3-10X what the player is
worth so their competition doesn't get the asset. In the owner's other
business models this works fine I would guess because their other industries
are not living in a fantasy world when it comes to revenue. There is no
revenue in the NHL to support that system. The scarey thing is now that
Betman's original offer of a Cap of $31 million (or something like that) is
not going to be too far off because the NHL in the US mean absolutely FUCK
ALL and it is sliding off the map everyday the lockout continues. Sure there
are some hockey towns who support their team but as a whole people would
rather be watching NASCAR or Poker Championships. Without TV the NHL is DONE
LIKE DINNER and should be rolled back to a smaller league with less teams
and less overpaid players. THIS BUSINESS MODEL IS DEFECTIVE. and like I keep
saying THIS LEAGUE NEEDS AN ENEMA.

I say flush the entire league and start again as every player a free agent,
open the league to scab/replacement players and then see what these players
will get paid. It will sort itself out in the end as the true cream will
rise to the top. I truely hope this is the end of the hockey we know. Other
than a few playoff series and maybe last years final, the hockey has been
utter shit over the last 5 years. And all through its steady decline we the
fans sit uncomfortably in our overpriced arena seats slurping $4 cokes and
eating $6 hotdogs to watch a wateredown boring 1-1 tie. Just think what you
could have bought for the $300.00 bucks it cost for you and a friend paid to
waste and evening. Shit buy 2 hookers and have a party at least you would be
having fun while getting FUCKED.
Post by Ogie Oglethorpe
Post by Lemieux
OK, so a few owners messed it up.
Now they realized they have messed up and demanded to fix the situation
by some purposed solutions.
At the other hand, we have all these I-can't-afford-my-Ferrari-crybabies
who are not even willing to talk.
And that's really the owners' faults AS OF RIGHT NOW?
Go get your fucking head some serious examination, some logic you have.
Of course it's easy to blame the screwy NHLPA, because they SHOULD be blamed.
It's people like you and Bob Assholenow that keep making the situation worse.
And have you even realized that there have already been union's members
openly questioning the NHLPA's stance already?
I would assume these are not odd cases for them to have able to surface to the media.
And don't get into the books thingys.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out the current financial situation.
And the books have already been presented, just that the fucking union
does not believed doesn't mean those are not the real books.
Gods forbid the owners not disclosing their other business veins.
Why on earth should they anyway?
And go back to high school economic.
Talk about supply/demand.
We have more players (supply) than the current market can afford (demand).
Econ 101, supply > demand, price drops.
THAT is free economy, but what the union doing is exactly manipulating
the market and trying to prevent the so-called free economy kick into
effects.
Fuck man are you PMSing? Fact of the matter is both sides are to blame
to some extent BUT the owners are the ones who brought this all on.
Expanding into markets where most people don't know or even care to know
what hockey is...this generated millions for them in the short term
through franchise fees. Next the got TV contracts on major US networks
that now since tanked because, in the grand scheme of things, citizens
of the USA are not hockey fans.
Bettman was the quarterback for this whole fiasco, trying to expand in
the USA. The owners saw dollar signs dancing in their heads, being the
greedy bastards that they are.
To me the ownership would have been further ahead expanding into Europe
where hockey is very popular.
Anyway where is this all leading? My Nostradamusing predictions along
The players will not accept a cap + The owners will not accept a deal
unless it includes a cap + Neither side will budge = No hockey for the
2004-2005 = No draft in June 2005 = The NHL owners, for the 2005-2006
season, will begin to sign replacement players + all existing players
contracts will be declared null and void = some players will cross the
line and sign with teams of their choosing (probably their dream team as
a kid) = the owners will once again get greedy and start offering big
bucks to stack their team in their favor causing this whole clusterfuck
mess to come full circle = Lawyers will be getting very very rich = fans
will remain very very pissed = fringe teams will be very very extinct =
who gives a fuck? - let them all rot and watch reruns of games of yore.
I suggest for you to join a bowling league and fuck em all!
Ogie
Sinfire
2004-11-22 04:44:09 UTC
Permalink
How can you play an NHL league across 2 continents ?

It doesn't matter who you blame, you can point the finger at
everyone. The agents for demanding such high salaries, the owners of
the rich teams forbeing willing to pay those salaries, and the fans
that put up with the high ticket prices just to go to the game.

Wasn't there some talk a couple of months ago, that if the season is
totally cancelled, then the league can fold the NHL, and start a new
league. And then run the league in a different way. They can ask any
player that wants to come back to come back under a new salary, and
any player that wants to hold out will be out of the league
permanently. Or the NHLPA can start their own league and see how it
works with their luxury tax system.




On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:10:44 -0400, Ogie Oglethorpe
Post by Ogie Oglethorpe
Post by Lemieux
OK, so a few owners messed it up.
Now they realized they have messed up and demanded to fix the situation by some purposed solutions.
At the other hand, we have all these I-can't-afford-my-Ferrari-crybabies who are not even willing to talk.
And that's really the owners' faults AS OF RIGHT NOW?
Go get your fucking head some serious examination, some logic you have.
Of course it's easy to blame the screwy NHLPA, because they SHOULD be blamed.
It's people like you and Bob Assholenow that keep making the situation worse.
And have you even realized that there have already been union's members openly questioning the NHLPA's stance already?
I would assume these are not odd cases for them to have able to surface to the media.
And don't get into the books thingys.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out the current financial situation.
And the books have already been presented, just that the fucking union does not believed doesn't mean those are not the real books.
Gods forbid the owners not disclosing their other business veins.
Why on earth should they anyway?
And go back to high school economic.
Talk about supply/demand.
We have more players (supply) than the current market can afford (demand).
Econ 101, supply > demand, price drops.
THAT is free economy, but what the union doing is exactly manipulating the market and trying to prevent the so-called free economy kick into effects.
Fuck man are you PMSing? Fact of the matter is both sides are to blame
to some extent BUT the owners are the ones who brought this all on.
Expanding into markets where most people don't know or even care to know
what hockey is...this generated millions for them in the short term
through franchise fees. Next the got TV contracts on major US networks
that now since tanked because, in the grand scheme of things, citizens
of the USA are not hockey fans.
Bettman was the quarterback for this whole fiasco, trying to expand in
the USA. The owners saw dollar signs dancing in their heads, being the
greedy bastards that they are.
To me the ownership would have been further ahead expanding into Europe
where hockey is very popular.
Anyway where is this all leading? My Nostradamusing predictions along
The players will not accept a cap + The owners will not accept a deal
unless it includes a cap + Neither side will budge = No hockey for the
2004-2005 = No draft in June 2005 = The NHL owners, for the 2005-2006
season, will begin to sign replacement players + all existing players
contracts will be declared null and void = some players will cross the
line and sign with teams of their choosing (probably their dream team as
a kid) = the owners will once again get greedy and start offering big
bucks to stack their team in their favor causing this whole clusterfuck
mess to come full circle = Lawyers will be getting very very rich = fans
will remain very very pissed = fringe teams will be very very extinct =
who gives a fuck? - let them all rot and watch reruns of games of yore.
I suggest for you to join a bowling league and fuck em all!
Ogie
Ogie Oglethorpe
2004-11-22 12:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sinfire
How can you play an NHL league across 2 continents ?
They invented a device a few years back called the jet engine. It is
very efficient at moving people vast distances in a short period of time.

We currently have games such as Montreal vs LA, Vancouver vs Florida.
The distances traveled there are no different then say New York to France.
Post by Sinfire
It doesn't matter who you blame, you can point the finger at
everyone. The agents for demanding such high salaries, the owners of
the rich teams forbeing willing to pay those salaries, and the fans
that put up with the high ticket prices just to go to the game.
Wasn't there some talk a couple of months ago, that if the season is
totally cancelled, then the league can fold the NHL, and start a new
league. And then run the league in a different way. They can ask any
player that wants to come back to come back under a new salary, and
any player that wants to hold out will be out of the league
permanently. Or the NHLPA can start their own league and see how it
works with their luxury tax system.
Neither one will work. In the end the players luxury tax system will be
the one adopted.
Post by Sinfire
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:10:44 -0400, Ogie Oglethorpe
Post by Ogie Oglethorpe
Post by Lemieux
OK, so a few owners messed it up.
Now they realized they have messed up and demanded to fix the situation by some purposed solutions.
At the other hand, we have all these I-can't-afford-my-Ferrari-crybabies who are not even willing to talk.
And that's really the owners' faults AS OF RIGHT NOW?
Go get your fucking head some serious examination, some logic you have.
Of course it's easy to blame the screwy NHLPA, because they SHOULD be blamed.
It's people like you and Bob Assholenow that keep making the situation worse.
And have you even realized that there have already been union's members openly questioning the NHLPA's stance already?
I would assume these are not odd cases for them to have able to surface to the media.
And don't get into the books thingys.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out the current financial situation.
And the books have already been presented, just that the fucking union does not believed doesn't mean those are not the real books.
Gods forbid the owners not disclosing their other business veins.
Why on earth should they anyway?
And go back to high school economic.
Talk about supply/demand.
We have more players (supply) than the current market can afford (demand).
Econ 101, supply > demand, price drops.
THAT is free economy, but what the union doing is exactly manipulating the market and trying to prevent the so-called free economy kick into effects.
Fuck man are you PMSing? Fact of the matter is both sides are to blame
to some extent BUT the owners are the ones who brought this all on.
Expanding into markets where most people don't know or even care to know
what hockey is...this generated millions for them in the short term
through franchise fees. Next the got TV contracts on major US networks
that now since tanked because, in the grand scheme of things, citizens
of the USA are not hockey fans.
Bettman was the quarterback for this whole fiasco, trying to expand in
the USA. The owners saw dollar signs dancing in their heads, being the
greedy bastards that they are.
To me the ownership would have been further ahead expanding into Europe
where hockey is very popular.
Anyway where is this all leading? My Nostradamusing predictions along
The players will not accept a cap + The owners will not accept a deal
unless it includes a cap + Neither side will budge = No hockey for the
2004-2005 = No draft in June 2005 = The NHL owners, for the 2005-2006
season, will begin to sign replacement players + all existing players
contracts will be declared null and void = some players will cross the
line and sign with teams of their choosing (probably their dream team as
a kid) = the owners will once again get greedy and start offering big
bucks to stack their team in their favor causing this whole clusterfuck
mess to come full circle = Lawyers will be getting very very rich = fans
will remain very very pissed = fringe teams will be very very extinct =
who gives a fuck? - let them all rot and watch reruns of games of yore.
I suggest for you to join a bowling league and fuck em all!
Ogie
Ragnarok73
2004-11-22 21:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sinfire
How can you play an NHL league across 2 continents ?
They invented a device a few years back called the jet engine. It is very
efficient at moving people vast distances in a short period of time.
We currently have games such as Montreal vs LA, Vancouver vs Florida. The
distances traveled there are no different then say New York to France.
Sure, but what about say, L.A. to Paris or Vancouver to Paris or anywhere
in the central, midwest, and west coasts of North America to Europe? It's
more than a little impractical at this point- perhaps when planes as fast as
the Concord are more commonplace among world airlines. Also, what the hell
gives you the impression that what the NHL needs at this point is more
expansion?
Neither one will work. In the end the players luxury tax system will be
the one adopted.
This could work if it was a dollar-for-dollar tax. Otherwise, the league
needs a hard cap implemented.

Ragnarok73
--
"Life is warfare and the sojourn of a stranger in a strange land." - Marcus
Aurelius
Sinfire
2004-11-22 22:30:12 UTC
Permalink
What about Vancouver to Europe ? or LA to Europe ?

It is easy if you live in New York and you have a direct flight out to
a lot of european cities. But for a western team to spend 10+ hours
on a flight to play a couple of games in another country, and to do
that on a regular basis will be too strenus for the teams.

It is bad enough now that the teams are complaining about their travel
schedules and having to travel around the states.

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:08:42 -0400, Ogie Oglethorpe
Post by Ogie Oglethorpe
Post by Sinfire
How can you play an NHL league across 2 continents ?
They invented a device a few years back called the jet engine. It is
very efficient at moving people vast distances in a short period of time.
We currently have games such as Montreal vs LA, Vancouver vs Florida.
The distances traveled there are no different then say New York to France.
Post by Sinfire
It doesn't matter who you blame, you can point the finger at
everyone. The agents for demanding such high salaries, the owners of
the rich teams forbeing willing to pay those salaries, and the fans
that put up with the high ticket prices just to go to the game.
Wasn't there some talk a couple of months ago, that if the season is
totally cancelled, then the league can fold the NHL, and start a new
league. And then run the league in a different way. They can ask any
player that wants to come back to come back under a new salary, and
any player that wants to hold out will be out of the league
permanently. Or the NHLPA can start their own league and see how it
works with their luxury tax system.
Neither one will work. In the end the players luxury tax system will be
the one adopted.
Post by Sinfire
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:10:44 -0400, Ogie Oglethorpe
Post by Ogie Oglethorpe
Post by Lemieux
OK, so a few owners messed it up.
Now they realized they have messed up and demanded to fix the situation by some purposed solutions.
At the other hand, we have all these I-can't-afford-my-Ferrari-crybabies who are not even willing to talk.
And that's really the owners' faults AS OF RIGHT NOW?
Go get your fucking head some serious examination, some logic you have.
Of course it's easy to blame the screwy NHLPA, because they SHOULD be blamed.
It's people like you and Bob Assholenow that keep making the situation worse.
And have you even realized that there have already been union's members openly questioning the NHLPA's stance already?
I would assume these are not odd cases for them to have able to surface to the media.
And don't get into the books thingys.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out the current financial situation.
And the books have already been presented, just that the fucking union does not believed doesn't mean those are not the real books.
Gods forbid the owners not disclosing their other business veins.
Why on earth should they anyway?
And go back to high school economic.
Talk about supply/demand.
We have more players (supply) than the current market can afford (demand).
Econ 101, supply > demand, price drops.
THAT is free economy, but what the union doing is exactly manipulating the market and trying to prevent the so-called free economy kick into effects.
Fuck man are you PMSing? Fact of the matter is both sides are to blame
to some extent BUT the owners are the ones who brought this all on.
Expanding into markets where most people don't know or even care to know
what hockey is...this generated millions for them in the short term
through franchise fees. Next the got TV contracts on major US networks
that now since tanked because, in the grand scheme of things, citizens
of the USA are not hockey fans.
Bettman was the quarterback for this whole fiasco, trying to expand in
the USA. The owners saw dollar signs dancing in their heads, being the
greedy bastards that they are.
To me the ownership would have been further ahead expanding into Europe
where hockey is very popular.
Anyway where is this all leading? My Nostradamusing predictions along
The players will not accept a cap + The owners will not accept a deal
unless it includes a cap + Neither side will budge = No hockey for the
2004-2005 = No draft in June 2005 = The NHL owners, for the 2005-2006
season, will begin to sign replacement players + all existing players
contracts will be declared null and void = some players will cross the
line and sign with teams of their choosing (probably their dream team as
a kid) = the owners will once again get greedy and start offering big
bucks to stack their team in their favor causing this whole clusterfuck
mess to come full circle = Lawyers will be getting very very rich = fans
will remain very very pissed = fringe teams will be very very extinct =
who gives a fuck? - let them all rot and watch reruns of games of yore.
I suggest for you to join a bowling league and fuck em all!
Ogie
Rod's news
2004-11-22 03:17:59 UTC
Permalink
I COULD NOT AGREE MORE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The yahoos bobble_head_buttman,
good_enuff, players, owners and their egos ALL believe that THEY control the
game - when, in fact - the fans control the game. If we'd have refused to go
ages ago (like when the average ticket price hit $100.00), we wouldn't be
where we are right now. I say the fans should stay away until these
sons_of_a_bitches (players, owners, agents, buttmans, goodnuffs) realize
who's paying the damned bills - and start concerning themselves with the
true hockey fan, as opposed to their 20th or 25th personal million.
Post by Dr. Evil
When the game finally get back I truly hope that the fans will send a
message to the owners and players by EVERYONE in EVERY city Boycotting the
first game. I for one will never go to another NHL game (unless its free)
but the people who are fixed on actually going should show some balls and
skip at least the first game.
Empty fucking rinks across the league on opening night, what a site that
would be.
Sinfire
2004-11-22 04:37:05 UTC
Permalink
That will never happen, considering that most fans that go to the
games are season ticket holders, and many of those are corporate
seats that couldn't care less about the game.

So unless these people are will to throw away the cost of the game
down the drain, we will never see an empty arena.
Post by Dr. Evil
When the game finally get back I truly hope that the fans will send a
message to the owners and players by EVERYONE in EVERY city Boycotting the
first game. I for one will never go to another NHL game (unless its free)
but the people who are fixed on actually going should show some balls and
skip at least the first game.
Empty fucking rinks across the league on opening night, what a site that
would be.
Rusty
2004-11-27 17:39:05 UTC
Permalink
I've been boycotting 75.00+ game tickets for years now
Post by Dr. Evil
When the game finally get back I truly hope that the fans will send a
message to the owners and players by EVERYONE in EVERY city Boycotting the
first game. I for one will never go to another NHL game (unless its free)
but the people who are fixed on actually going should show some balls and
skip at least the first game.
Empty fucking rinks across the league on opening night, what a site that
would be.
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